This is an interview I did with Rob of Sherpa Bear Coaching for his podcast - The Coaching Channel

In it we discuss personal branding photography for men, the power of a photograph and the experience of a personal brand photoshoot.

“ This is gonna be an episode which falls into a different category because I'm interviewing a personal branding photographer and that's Marcus Ahmad 

Marcus. Welcome. 

Thank you Rob and thanks for welcoming me to the show.

We met in the world of networking, but we've found that we've got a connection that's that lies outside of photography and outside of coaching. It's something that binds us together. Well, what would you say that is?

Well, we can have a desire to both help men and we have talked about that. 

It is what I'm talking about the need to kind of want to focus at this point in time. In my field of work within personal branding photography, I work with a lot of

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smaller businesses, it's predominantly dominated by women and therefore a lot of my clients are women and a lot of branding photographers are women, which is great, and it's great to see the people who've been part of the industry, but I do find it skewed very much towards the women's side, towards the female side. 

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And I thought, well, what's happening to the guys… who's photographing the guys, and who's getting the guys out there with their personal branding, who's helping them out? And I thought, well, of course, there's nobody really specialising in doing that. 

So you know, I scour the internet, you know, both here in the UK and in America. Nobody's doing it. And I think well, what's going on here? 

Why is there this disconnect between this amazing service that can be done that can really make people feel more confident, promote their businesses and promote themselves? Why is this service not being picked up by guys? 

So this is what this is why I started this journey into looking into how I can help people out with it help guys out with personal branding photography, it’s quite a new thing. 

I mean, it comes back from the days of old when people who had a brand who needed to promote it were film stars, pop stars, people  that you will read about them in the papers, you will know about them, you'll be discussing them, you feel you're connected to them. 

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Personal Branding photography has only really taken off in the last maybe three years. The lack of knowledge is because it is quite new. The growth of the  Internet has brought along the fact that everybody has now got a personal brand that is no longer limited to pop stars and film stars. 

If the individual we've all got it because of Facebook, and Instagram, women and girls are great at getting on the internet and talking to each other. And okay, well this in my head is touchy feely. It's an awkward I'm trying to think but let's just put it out there. That's how you know very good at networking, talking to each other. 

Guys. I think we're in all of it new choice, you know where you were used to being down the pub, having a pint or whatever. And talking things to your mates that way not on a social media. 

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So, so the touchy-feely rebrand that. Can you think of something better than touchy-feely it's just connection and connection on our terms and I mean that for anyone you know what, what terms do you want to connect with some body?

 When I see that personal branding photography that you do is that these are services that are someone that other people invest in, they want they want that person because they the service that they're providing, and that's how I see personal branding photography. And so it pays to go to new depths to find out who somebody is. I think that's what comes across. From your work as you produce those lawyers, to somebody within the images that you produce all about working with people and photographing people. 

So that's what I mean. Did you know that I don't do anything else apart from really if we could take portrait photography and I'm really interested in this connection of telling people’s stories through the photograph. There's a lot of power in a single photograph, you look at it and immediately or within they say, less than a second, you can start building up a judgement about that person. 

You're you're helping people tell a story that they can't tell themselves that's what comes across.

 I like it. I'm gonna make a note of that!

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And as he said, like that just speaks 1000 words and you said it's under a second. So that first impression, but this is a loss of depth to that those images that you're producing. I wonder what it's like for your clients, what kind of comments or feedback do you get from them about at the end product that you present that to them? 

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I tell you, it always starts with I don't like being photographed. 

But then at the end, there were more people loved it because it was not the experience that they were expecting… I think. 

What happens to them in that process?

While they become more authentic. 

What that really means is open to debate but they become more real like that or the old Christmas card, whatever pose you do, you can see the layers peeling off in front of you and you can see that it can really it's a subtle thing. And I show a lot, really fast and every people that go up we've taken so many photographs so quickly. And yet everyone is different, really slightly different but very different. Really the thing that helps the most is the time it's just I don't you know, spending an hour with somebody as a minimum it's really how long it takes for people to get relaxed. 

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And a bit of banter, stuff like that. Yeah. 

So you see you're, you're helping people and then try something new which is challenging. The letting go of the perception out of themselves. 

And then and then what emerges then out of that when you're getting towards the end of that first session,

 A beautiful butterfly. Oh, love it. Yeah. 

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And give us some detail on that butterfly because I think when we have layers, and we hold on to them all the way we're wearing like 10 jackets, I suppose. Yeah, we just had as off you're going to feel different. So I wonder what you suspect or what you know about your clients in terms of the way it feels and how different changes? Well, I can just see the end result. I mean, I don't know how they use their photographs. 

And then people start to show off their photographs, on their website and their LinkedIn profile or wherever it's going to be, and they get back all these positive affirmations about it and they feel better themselves. They feel much more confident. They want to show their photograph more. These will help you attract your ideal client. Because you've built your confidence up, you show your face off more with social media with websites more you. The more you get out there, the better it's going to be. So ultimately, I would say confidently, that the end result is people improving their lives.

 Even if they get just one photograph, and they put it nobody sees it and they put it on their wall and think oh, that was me and I'm very happy we've made myself at that particular moment. That itself is enough. You know, it also can be sort of personal branding. We know we're using this to people to use in their business. 

Yes, that's the way you're describing what you're doing is you're helping speak a new kind of language so you're stripping off the layers. Which are probably less than many people have. And so you can access them, the essence of them and capture that in a moment. And those moments I think are really important because they're really true of you 

We've got lots of different sides of our personalities. And that truth can be in bed. But yeah. 

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Now the reason I'm holding back a bit here because there's a whole debate about the truth of photography, photography. Ultimately, if we really dig deep into it, there's no truth in photography. It's all set up. Except for the low it's completely subjective. There's no object. Many people come up 

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with something, you're making a judgement and you're deciding that I want so avoid that. It's it's subjective that the deep side of it. 

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But nevertheless, though, it's it's, it's, I think it's still a great way of presenting yourself with the photograph. I understand what you're saying. But I think maybe there's a because it sounds a purity to it. 

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Because you're taking someone you're taking your client somewhere they can't get themselves. 

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A No, you can't do what you do, but I can't do that by holding my phone up and getting a selfie. 

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So there's that kind of collaboration between the two of you and you both need to invest the energy but the the result comes out for that and you can just see that there's a value, stripping the layers back so it makes it makes you stand out amongst whichever really look professional or maybe you're trying to operate it so someone can recognise something in that image and say, I want to know more about that. Person. Exactly. 

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That's it.

That's my job, being a fashion or advertising photographer and that's my background that's one direction and it was all my modus operandi. This was about getting the public who flick through a magazine like really quickly like that. On a billboard or surrounded by hold their gaze for longer than any other image. That is my goal. And that is the goal for my clients as well.

Right so now based on what you just said, I'm going to offer part of this life purpose statement. That I try to offer to every person. 

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So when we talk about the impact you have and what you do, I think that you enable the world to hold their gaze on your clients greatness. 

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Lovely. 

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Hi, nice. Actually, describing flicking through the magazine and…

I recognise something here that I want to know more about.

Exactly.

That it can't happen without that process that you take and that's exactly why you know and exactly that's what photography is all about. Portrait photography is all about. I have seen plentyof communities where if I were, let's say to be able to do your window in the nicest possible way, and observe you operating during a photo shoot, what would I see happening in you? What would I come away and be able to describe somebody else about you, yourself during the photo shoot? 

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Well, I think this is where the similarities between you and me now I say coming in that I'm coaching people to be confident in front of the camera, right? You have to be able to read people quite quickly. I would like to think of myself as being fairly empathic where I can talk, connect and understand the mood of people fairly quickly. And I think as a photographer, portrait photographer, that's a good skill to have. And you've got to be good at listening and asking questions. You got to have an inquiring mind, first of all, you want to be interested in people you know and I am interested in people luckily, everybody knows everybody's interesting. Everybody's got something to tell. I've always thought that like my dad used to be a student of photography. Wow. Your story to tell. 

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So you're interested in that story. And so that's mainly what you get out and the image is something that represents that story. I would hope so. Yeah, I would really hope so something that stood at that particular time, you know, and with that particular choice we made I like that when I posted that one. 

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But yes, so it's part of the so that is making them feel at ease first of all, and then of course, you know, the technical side, the right light, the beauty dish the softbox, finding and deciding what lens suits them, getting the styling looking good and all those kind of more technical sides and then it's just a question when I say that it's just it's a question of photographing, until you're almost people almost bored of it really.

I have probably taken hundreds of 1000s of photographs from people, not different people but hundreds of 1000s of photographs. And I always know when I've got it what I want, I don't and I say okay, we've got it. I put the camera down and I look through and it always is it's like yeah, okay, I think I don't know why I got it at that. I think I've got it right. But when I look through it invariably I'm, I've got it right in that process of you capturing that image. 

If you could just kind of press pause and stand outside yourself and look back at you at your camera. 

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What would you say is true of you at that moment? That's what I'm trying to get drilled down into what's happening inside Marcus whilst he's performing that service.

Lots of self-doubts!

Oh my god, you know, are the lights right and this but then a brief moment of clarity, a brief moment of clarity when I get that brief moment clarity that's when I'm looking through photographs with the client or even myself funny. So which one are you want to go for? I would look them really, really quickly. The contact sheet really, really quickly. And not without thinking about it and immediately bang, you just know it when it goes for if you start thinking about it and stuff always gonna work. If you're not, it doesn't work quite so. Well. And I think it's this idea of your subconscious taking over and I do believe that is the point. 

So, does that answer your question? Am I not monitoring your question by talking about something completely different? Like talking to your, your eyes, okay. It's my interpretation when you say is that you are how soon? I think you have a lot of confidence in your own abilities to trust your intuition, your gut, your instincts I can analyze, doing that, you know, when you're in that flow that you will have got it in you will catch it. So so long as you are in that state of flow. You will you in the right. 

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Turn it the right way to get done. And you get by being emotionally intelligence by being interested by several operating within an entity. And all of this stands on the shoulders of technical ability as well. So that's kind of given you know, how you're relating to somebody and coaching them. And when all those things are in place. You then start your process. Typically you get into your flow. And when you're fully in flow. It's happened it's like almost a bit of nuclear fusion. It's happened we need to capture that now. 

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Exactly. I noticed you're using the word flow that you're building there from your sport background. Flow is very important in visualization. 

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It is I think you get someone when you get lost in something. Yeah, when you get lost. 

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I know all about getting lost in things that’s for sure! Music is my other passion, of course, as you might know, and I didn't use it. I've been paying Basic guitar for about 45 years. And that is talking about flow that it took a long time to pay. These are quite fair to the fact that I've been doing I obviously started when I was three years old, obviously, obviously. 

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But that is a time to pick up my new bass guitar and start playing. You can completely get into a flow completely flow thinking about notes, timing or anything. That is what Yeah. 

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And I think that situation is doing for a long time before you get any good at it

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So I mean, the moment you talk about in your first sessions, playing the bass, I am assuming it sounds like 

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places Yeah, use it more so because I've been doing it longer and it's it is a slightly different process with music as well. But yeah, I should point out I'm not saying I'm really good at doing things. There are really only two things I do. I don't do anything else. 

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No judgment coming from me and I know I told her 

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what kind of message do you want men to hear? Do you think? 

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The message I 

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know you've been busy there, isn't it guys? Come on. 

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Level up. Get out there. Get yourself out there. Put yourself out there

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I'm going to talk about it. When people don't really deal with the people. 

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Your personality. 

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Embrace yourself and get out there just in the same way as a lot of my female clients do. They've got doubts. They will come in with a lack of confidence exactly the same way you guys do. But I think they got role models they see oh, so and so you know, Barioness Mone, whoever it might be is that they're both being photographed putting herself front and centre. So they got role models were guided, maybe not many role models. 

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actually pick Richard Branson. You know, I mean, my favourites are Paul Smith. There's loads of guys out there who are really good at using their personality. 

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Yeah. 

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Obviously, you know, is a really genuine guy is really creative, you know, could be quite eccentric producing amazing company, obviously. 

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And I think it's a great example of a guy who is in his 70’s still out there, Embracing the World and embracing who he is obviously, a large part. 

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Yes. And so 

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I think I can maybe summarise what you do is you allowing part of someone to speak 

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has a very thing to say about themselves. That cannot get pushed, pushed back so on. Maybe, maybe the females. Well, speaking native women talk more freely about how to feel or in touch with that side. More frequently. I think men are good now. But when they do start talking, you're allowing the fat part of it to be activated. But like anything if it's something that we're not used to doing, it's going to feel a bit a bit funny of it. We're a bit challenging in the first place. 

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Yes, and it is a new thing I feel like we said earlier in the shower is this whole idea of promoting your personal brand is very new. We've got a lot to offer guys. We've got a lot to offer. I think in the world, we're setting ourselves off you know, I'm, I'm doing a photography book at the moment called grey matters, with the s in brackets, very important. And it's and it's all about guys who are over 50 Who are reinventing themselves or doing something a little bit different. What interests you about that? Well, it's obviously about me isn't it? 

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Yeah, it's obviously you know, over 50 and, you know, reinventing myself going back to a different type of photography and always looking for something new. So it's partly about me, but what I'm also I'm interested in is when I get to meet these people, and they inspire me, right, okay. My question is to answer the challenge. 

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I see the challenge for men, older men, so I'm 45 As of yesterday. 

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They obviously fishing for that. 

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Do you see that as an age-based challenge, putting ourselves out there as older individuals and males Yeah, we are in a basis it with this dichotomy with this juxtaposition as it were of people getting older? 

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I don't know what people living longer, more older people have. And so we're in this very short society, which is sort of or maybe it's changing. I think it's changing. I think there's going to be older people are going to be more appreciated in the years to come. Right. Okay. Especially their friendship themselves. Lovely, especially if they're exactly right. And you do that you help them do that. Hopefully, I hope 

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that's really important to say, because what it's got that's got to start home. And if you're going to use yourself to sell your business you've got to appreciate yourself. I'm so going to the process with you in the studio. You will help me do that. And you're mining for that kind of that one shot you can talk about you know when you've got it. 

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You've got evidence. Appreciate that. 

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And it's great if people leave the studio at that point. Well, obviously not these days but tell metaphysically that pin their hand feeling good about themselves and they say that I want to show this everybody have put in is that really right so yeah, now they got a disaster. So I want to show you this because what was the because then I want to show you this picture of me because Well, I think that depends on the individual. I don't think there's I can't I'm not gonna come out with a blanket statement. I think that depends on the individual and their own feelings about themselves. Really. What's been one of the most significant obviously those yummy things one of the most significant photoshoots and the impact somebody's got okay you know, I'm gonna go to a my launch page shoot, which was yesterday as a commercial with us but always think that in our largely offline next job I don't put my work in galleries. Avoid thinking about the gut. So many cables block photographs me for some corporate work, some headshots for leaks and stuff like that. And he was really good in front of the camera and I said, Okay, we've done the corporate stuff. Why don't we just do it a bit more unusual, a bit more dramatic? So I changed the lighting around and I said, Look, you then you look completely different. You'd like your Naxa because of college. I could be that so I've always wanted to be an actor, as well. Look, you look, I said it was you went that and took that to an agency and I doubt a lot of agencies. They would take you on because you've got this you've got the right face for God, you know, that the camera loves you or whatever. So he's going away now thinking and hoping that he's going to get into changing career and becoming an actor. 

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That's wouldn't happen. And so you had that interaction did that work together? No, he didn't think about it. And when sometimes we never far from a big change. It's not like it makes a massive shift. I mean, this, yeah, go back quite well. And change is always good. Change is one thing I've learned in life change. Even though it's probably shit at the time. 

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It always works out really well. If he can't cough I got I did that. I wouldn't be where I am now. Yeah. So maybe say to the challenging step was, you know goes putting yourself up for being photographed. And then beyond that, of this very slow journey towards applying for anatomy. 

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So that initial step could be like, but then once you're over it off you go. Yeah, I mean, you could, you could be white read about this and why that change happens and all that but you know, I'm just hoping that makes people look good. And bring about and bring about maybe a different side of their personality, which is something you could you've made, or you allow Simon to see themselves in a different way. So you have the literal perspective of the talk about behind the camera. And if you can somehow get Simon to kind of stand by your book, this is what we can see the camera when you do obviously when you show them the photograph. That's the beauty of your photography. Yes, you actually do. I mean, in coaching. 

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I achieved that in a different way. You actually have some physical thing. Look, I can show you what I can see. Big. 

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That's our public. Yeah, my way is probably more superficial. Yours is got more depth to it. I'm sure. You've just allowed somebody to think, okay, I can give me an act that is not superficial. 

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That photograph and start this journey, and it can end up you know, on the website, certainly in magazines or even on billboards. And you look up that thing Oh, that's an immense feeling of satisfaction to see that people have got some value out of that motivated work assignment, which then has this long-lasting legacy, like you said about the photograph, Then embarking on a journey that's really interesting. And you have to have gone through that very intimate process. 

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allowing you to be how you want to be when you're at your best to capture your client at their best. And then that lovely special moment. Then you give birth to this photograph which then goes on this journey as you say you see it almost like seeing something go up. Someone go, sorry, yes, yes, that's what I'm not sure when fell wouldn't know that but maybe the all these little boy the photograph. 

To this point, and that's the that's love that you said. You said that this is your WHY seeing people going and doing great things because they've allowed themselves to be in this moment. Yeah. Photography, obviously, ugh, see, be passionate about it. You know, there's obviously a lot of other forms of media these days competing with it and it is a marketplace but there's still something about a photograph that you know, it used to be that saying, isn't it when the house is burning down? It would be the photographs that people would always grab is the last time I looked at the photo album, when my partner and I were first dating, and we would just try and get to know each other. And that's when we started pulling out albums because we hadn't seen these boxes as light and I forgot how much I enjoyed tangible photographs leafing through the pages was on a screen. You could you could look up to it, it just it was it was lovely. Well, I mean, I could talk about it forever. But yeah, it is lovely. You know, because it's, it opens up with dialogue between yourself and maybe an old segment, but he looked at it with somebody else. 

But it's a dialogue that one image you can stare at it and you start going back to the moment and it sets you off. Now that moment that recollection might not be really what happened but it that's a photograph can do that, and a photograph can sometimes have different meanings to different people. 

There's no one fixed meaning with a photograph you know, people see in different ways but that's the power of a photograph, a single image. It draws you in, because you see it in your own way. 

I'm not okay. Right. So yeah, for being drawn into their own interpretation or to be lost in their own way in this photograph, so we're all looking at the same photograph. We're all lost in it in a slightly different way. 

And what we lost in the last photo was someone genuinely whose guard is down he was a pure part himself, you know, their, their essence we talked about before, but people can be people to have their own relationship with that person through Facebook. Yes, exactly. That I firmly believe that and that is the power of photography. That is why it's it really is there's a deep connection there. Okay, so I'll get to that point about what sort of offer life but stay tuned. Yes, it sounds like you're saturated in who your subject is. 

So the saturated lens of flow is what I'm going to offer. 

Wow. Okay. The saturated lens is low. That's not true. You are if you have a saturated lens of flow now, we're going to come on to the impact. The impact that you have, is there are many guys just choose one is around this. 

This you allow personal connections with your client’s greatness. 

Yeah, okay. That's the see the saturated lens of flow. So you, you are the saturated lens of flow who allows personal connections with your clients grapes? Yeah, I'd like that's a really nice way of putting it, Rob. Okay. I'm just gonna write down before I forget. Yeah. 

That's fine. With, can I get away with that? My new LinkedIn profile? Absolutely. You can't just get away with it. We can prove it's true. Okay. 

Well, so this is something you deal with as you try to mark jackets. 

And you know, when you try and jacket on, you try and on to the jackets 11.00 Okay, and it fits the right way. It's not slightly baggy, you're not gonna put up with anything here. It just fits. 

Life Purpose Statement is there to be tried on now. 

They can evolve over time. And the only way to do this is to try it on. So I invite you as tribal why. You can just say this to yourself. You can write it down and you can share it with people that you've worked with, and just say, What do you think? This of this is a way to describe what I do the impact I have. 

And you don't have to necessarily talk about how we've got to this point because sometimes you don't have to. 

But it doesn't have to mean anything to anyone else. If you feel it really belongs in your Spanish favourite that's really great. So in the first person said to mitre so you would say I undersaturated lens of flavor a loudspeaker. 

And if if someone's trying to sell themself and their business and that's what you do, I can see them really well. They already wants it. So this is another way to look at it. That lovely, really, really, really nice. Well, can I ask you a question? Please do show your work and we do. Get that but we've been talking about photographing men and yeah, my feelings about why men don't do it. What are your what? 

You've been persuaded? 

What? What persuaded you to have your photograph taken in place not binding shoot. Okay, so first of all seeing seeing your photographs so for our audience of sometimes in markets, so 

just the images are incredible. 

You know, as like going into an IMAX cinema versus looking at effects on the back of a two megapixel camera. 

Yeah, very impactful. 

And then knowing more about your process so I have more information about you and how you work on kind of what it's like and, and seeing it seeing a value in what you do for it because often in an industry where I am and the people to help them do that they can't do by themselves. So to go to a process that helps me speak to my audience. Is it attractive to me. So that's a plus you know, we've we get on well, that's really important. I can't work with anybody. 

So I think maybe you may see me do this. I say when I'm potentially getting on board or clients. 

There's a connection. It's a bit like enough of what I'm looking for. Is that Yeah, and I think I think you've got an essay. 

That's taken care of. So, therefore, you know, I'm willing to go and do something which I don't normally do, which has been photographed. We all think that men have been tested. Can they say it? Get out there and say it? Yeah, we should be moving and not just pounding away thinking, Oh, we don't need to do that. You know, and actually, I think you'd probably have to help men to want to do it. Yes. That's I think I know a lot of things. So the qualities, the journey with your clients where they're going to want to do so. 

Nice. Thank you. Namaste and thank you so much. And you see, you will see marks as details description video. Thank you and and I think we're gonna have to post the pictures that we do have to make sure that our audience see that at some point as well. Indeed, we will and I'm sure they will. I'm sure they'll get to see them. But thank you, Bob. It's actually a pleasure to learn a little bit more about myself as well. So Marcus, the saturated lens of flow. Thank you very much for being on the coaching channel. Oh, thank you so much, Rob. Thank you really enjoyed it.